ES/670405-6 - Conversacion sobre la obra del Señor Caitanya- San Francisco

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda



670405-6CN - San Francisco, 5-6 abril 1967 - 108:17 minutos


(comentarios sobre la obra del Señor Caitanya)



Prabhupāda: …grabación?

Hayagrīva: Es buena.

Prabhupāda: La primera escena es que la gente pasa con el movimiento saṅkīrtana como lo tenemos, como solemos hacer, una procesión muy linda con mṛdaṅga, karatāla y esa corneta, toda la gente, de forma ordinaria. Tenemos que hacer una linda procesión.

La segunda escena es que Kali, Kali personificado... una persona debe ser decorada negruzca. Un hombre negruzco con vestido real y rasgos muy feos. Y su reina, otra joven o dama de rasgos feos. Así que están perturbados. Hablarán para sus adentros de que: “Ahora hay un movimiento de saṅkīrtana, y ¿cómo vamos a proseguir nuestro deber de este Kali-yuga?”.

Habrá, en esa escena, en alguna esquina alguien bebiendo. Dos o tres personas bebiendo. La escena será así. Están sentados en el centro. En una esquina alguien participa en la bebida, y en otra parte alguien está hablando ilícitamente de lujuria y amor con mujeres. En otra sección hay una matanza de una vaca, y otra sección juegos de azar. De esta manera, se debe ajustar la escena.

Y en el medio, el hombre feo, el negro y la mujer fea hablarán que: “Ahora estamos en peligro. El movimiento saṅkīrtana ha comenzado. ¿Qué hacer?”. De esta manera tienes que terminar esa escena.

Hayagrīva: Ahora Kali es representada como un hombre. ¿Como un hombre?

Prabhupāda: Como un hombre, sí.

Hayagrīva: Porque a veces sé que se representa como femenino.

Prabhupāda: Sí. Hombre, su rasgo negro, y vestido como un rey. El negro significa... el negro significa ignorancia. Y de manera similar, la escena también es negruzca.

Hayagrīva: Sí.

Prabhupāda: Estas cosas deben ser variadas. Entonces, se menciona allí, exhibir el sexo ilícito, el matadero, la intoxicación, el juego. Luego la tercera escena es muy linda: la danza rāsa.

Hayagrīva: Uh... esto antes de esto... No voy a hacer esto, no creo, ni oriental ni occidental, pero creo que esto puede aplicarse para todo el mundo en el sentido de que los nombres pueden ser nombres de la India, pero creo que la exhibición de la asamblea de Kali y su consorte Sin y la exhibición de sexo ilícito y matadero, todo esto puede ser... puede ser algún prototipo de tipo occidental.

Prabhupāda: Eso puede ser. No, por qué... a veces se puede malinterpretar que los occidentales sólo están bajo la influencia de Kali. Porque el mundo está bajo la influencia de Kali. No es que solo en tu país está la intoxicación, el sexo ilícito. No. En todas partes es así.

Hayagrīva: Me doy cuenta de eso.

Prabhupāda: Más o menos. Más o menos.

Hayagrīva: Mi punto... no sólo en esa escena. Mi punto es que no quiero hacer una obra hindú.

Prabhupāda: Eso lo puedes hacer. Eso puedes hacerlo. No tengo ninguna objeción. Pero la gente no debe malinterpretar que aquí se representa una escena que simplemente critica el modo occidental. Ese es mi punto. Sí.

Hayagrīva: Sí. Ahora esa otra persona, ese otro Señor Caitanya... ¿Roy? ¿Quién escribió el otro Señor Caitanya? ¿Esa otra obra?

Prabhupāda: No, nadie.

Hayagrīva: Le mostré esa otra obra.

Prabhupāda: Oh, ese Dilip Kumar.

Hayagrīva: Sí. Eso es lo que tenía en mente. Pensé que era una obra estrictamente hindú.

Prabhupāda: Sí, eso era tipo hindú. Sí, eso era tipo hindú. O si quieres... No tengo ninguna objeción si presentas los personajes en estilo europeo. Pero Caitanya Mahāprabhu...

Hayagrīva: No, no. No se presentarían en un estilo occidental, pero no habría ni un sabor oriental ni occidental.

Prabhupāda: Eso será muy bueno. Eso será muy bueno.

Hayagrīva: En otras palabras, podría estar en cualquier lugar.

Prabhupāda: Sí.

Hayagrīva: La situación podría ser... porque es trascendental. No es de aquí, no es de allá.

Prabhupāda: Sí, sí. No, Kali no es trascendental. Kali es material.

Hayagrīva: Sí. Sí. La tierra, el mundo entero está afectado, así que no es sólo una sección.

Prabhupāda: Sí. No sólo la Tierra, esta Tierra; es todo el universo.

Hayagrīva: Sí.

Prabhupāda: La siguiente escena es la danza rāsa. Danza Rāsa significa Kṛṣṇa y Rādhārāṇī en el centro, y los gopīs, están rodeando. Han visto esa escena circundante que bailaban el otro día en el parque, mano a mano.

Hayagrīva: Sí, sí.

Prabhupāda: Un Kṛṣṇa y una gopī, están bailando. Que la escena sea, la escena debe ser... entonces la danza rāsa debe detenerse, y Kṛṣṇa hablará con el gopīs. Kṛṣṇa dirá a los gopīs que: “Mis queridas amigas, han venido a Mí en esta hora de la noche. No es muy bueno, porque el deber de toda mujer es complacer a su marido.

¿Qué pensarán sus esposos de que hayan venido a estas horas de la noche? El deber de una mujer es no renunciar a su esposo, incluso si no es de buen carácter o si es desafortunado, si es viejo o si está enfermo. Aún así, el esposo es adorado por la mujer. Han venido aquí, es muy pecaminoso. Así que ustedes... la gente las criticará. Por favor, vuelvan. Ahora hemos terminado”.

Las gopīs responderán que: “No puedes pedirnos que volvamos, porque con gran dificultad y con gran, quiero decir, extático deseo hemos venido a Ti, y no es Tu deber pedirnos que volvamos”. De este modo se organiza una charla en la que Kṛṣṇa les pide que vuelvan, pero ellas insisten: “No, dejemos que continúe nuestra danza de rāsa“.

Entonces, cuando la danza rāsa haya terminado, las gopīs se irán, entonces Kṛṣṇa en Su halilaki dice que: “Ellas son Mi corazón y Mi alma, estas gopīs. Son devotas tan sinceras que no les importan los apegos familiares y todo... cualquier mala fama. Ellos vienen a Mí. Entonces, ¿cómo voy a pagarles?”.

Él pensaba: "¿Cómo les pagaré su amor tan extático?". Entonces pensó: "No podré recompensarles hasta que no asuma su situación para comprenderme". Porque Yo mismo no puedo entenderme, tengo que tomar la posición de las gopīs, de cómo Me están amando".

Con esa consideración, Él tomó la forma del Señor Caitanya. Por lo tanto, Kṛṣṇa es negruzco; el Señor Caitanya es del color de las gopīs. Toda la vida del Señor Caitanya es la representación del amor de las gopīs hacia Kṛṣṇa. Eso debe ser pintado en ese cuadro.

¿Tienes que preguntar algo?

Hayagrīva: Esta es Su determinación de encarnar como el Señor Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: El Señor Caitanya, sí.

Hayagrīva: Con el fin de...

Prabhupāda: Para apreciar a Kṛṣṇa en la forma de gopī. De la misma manera que un tengo trato contigo. Tú tienes tu individualidad, yo tengo mi individualidad, pero si quiero estudiar cómo eres tan obediente y amoroso conmigo, entonces tengo que ir a tu posición. Es una psicología muy natural. Sí. Tienes que pintar de esa manera.

Hayagrīva: Creo que está claro.

Prabhupāda: ¿Eh? Eso está claro.

Hayagrīva: Creo que está claro.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Entonces la cuarta escena es el eclipse lunar. Tendrás que organizar una escena en la que justo al atardecer aparezca la Luna llena en el lado del Ganges, y la gente se esté bañando mitad en el agua y mitad sobre el agua, y todos estén cantando, esta misma escena, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa", con mṛdaṅga y... sí.

Entonces llega alguien, Advaita. Advaita entra en escena para bañarse en el Ganges y comienza a bailar. "¡Oh, mi misión está ahora cumplida! ¡Mi misión está ahora cumplida!" Él hablará. Él estaba muy apenado de ver la condición de la gente que: "Todo el mundo está comprometido simplemente para la gratificación material de los sentidos".

“Nadie se dedica a amar a Dios". Así que quiso rectificar su conducta, pero pensó: "Soy un hombre corriente. ¿Qué puedo hacer? Si Kṛṣṇa mismo viene, entonces Él puede hacerlo". Por lo tanto, adoró a Kṛṣṇa, y simplemente le ofreció agua del Ganges y hojas de tulasī.

De esta manera Kṛṣṇa ha tomado Su encarnación como el Señor Caitanya. Él ha entendido ahora, en este momento el Señor Caitanya ha aparecido. Él estaba bailando: "Ahora mi misión está cumplida. Ahora mi misión está cumplida".

Hayagrīva: Eso es Advaita.

Prabhupāda: Advaita. Eclipse lunar, todos bañándose en el Ganges y cantando.

Hayagrīva: Y Advaita se presenta allí, y está muy alegre en esta ocasión porque había pedido que esta encarnación...

Prabhupāda: Sí. Él rezó. Le rezó a Kṛṣṇa: “Ven”.

Hayagrīva: Y él es consciente en este momento de que esta es la incidencia de la encarnación del Señor Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: Sí. Sí. Esta escena debe aparecer así.

Hayagrīva: Ahora noté en la lista de personajes que tenemos aquí arriba, Rādhārāṇī. No aparece en este punto.

Prabhupāda: No. ¿Rādhārāṇī estará en la danza rāsa?

Hayagrīva: Oh. En la danza rāsa.

Prabhupāda: Sí.

Hayagrīva: Es el...

Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī y Kṛṣṇa en el centro.

Hayagrīva: Eso es...

Prabhupāda: Y Kṛṣṇa se ha expandido por otras gopīs, mano a mano.

Hayagrīva: Esa es la tercera escena, la danza rāsa. Entonces, ¿Rādhārāṇī aparece?

Prabhupāda: Esa es la tercera escena, sí. Ahí está la aparición, aparición de Rādhārāṇī.

Hayagrīva: Las damiselas de Vṛndāvana aparecen también en la...

Prabhupāda: No, el baile fue en Vṛndāvana. Sí. Esa danza fue en Vṛndāvana.

Hayagrīva: Las damiselas de Vṛndāvana también aparecen en la tercera escena.

Prabhupāda: Sí. En la tercera escena. Sí. La rāsa danza del Señor Kṛṣṇa y Sus asociadas. La determinación del Señor Kṛṣṇa.

Hayagrīva: Muy bien. Ahora tenemos la cuarta escena. Habla Advaita con alguien en la cuarta escena, o ¿es que...?

Prabhupāda: Sí.

Hayagrīva: ¿Hay alguien allí? ¿Alguno de estos personajes está ahí? Estoy tratando de presentar a los personajes

Prabhupāda: Sí, ciertamente.

Hayagrīva: Los personajes deben ser presentados en el primer acto.

Prabhupāda: Sí. Debería haber...

Hayagrīva: Algunas de ellas. No todas, pero unos pocas deberían ser...

Prabhupāda: Śrīnivāsa. Śrīnivāsa y Haridāsa. El personaje de Haridāsa está ahí?

Hayagrīva: Sí, tengo esto.

Prabhupāda: Sí. Haridāsa debe ser un anciano.

Hayagrīva: Advaita también es viejo, ¿no?

Prabhupāda: Advaita es viejo.

Hayagrīva: Y Nivas.

Prabhupāda: No es tan viejo. Es un hombre de mediana edad.

Hayagrīva: ¿Podría hacerme un breve resumen de su...? ¿Son devotos, son devotos...

Prabhupāda: Sí. Igual que la imagen es, Advaita, digamos, su edad es de unos cuarenta años, y Haridāsa y Advaita, tenía unos más de cincuenta años en ese momento cuando nació Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Eran hombres bastante mayores, la edad de Su padre....

Hayagrīva: Todos son devotos.

Prabhupāda: Todos ellos son devotos. Cuando Caitanya Mahāprabhu propagaba Su movimiento de saṅkīrtana, los brāhmanas, los brāhmanas ortodoxos, pusieron objeciones. "Esto no está de acuerdo con la śāstra hindú". Esto es algo nuevo". Pero sólo estos dos caballeros, ellos... Advaita resultó ser el jefe de la comunidad brāhmana. Así que su apoyo...

Y era un hombre acomodado, era un hombre rico, un hombre influyente. Su apoyo hizo que el movimiento de Caitanya tuviera éxito en Nabadwip. Era un hombre muy influyente. Y de manera similar, Śrīnivāsa, también era, pertenecía a la comunidad brāhmana. Y Advaita dio cobijo a Haridāsa. Haridāsa era un mahometano. Así que fue castigado por el magistrado mahometano y se refugió en casa de Advaita. Él lo mantenía.

Hayagrīva: Haridāsa Ṭhākura.

Prabhupāda: Puedes hacer que aparezcan en la escena. Estaban hablando entre Haridāsa y Śrīnivāsa y Advaita, y todos ellos cantando y bailando: "Ahora nuestra misión está cumplida".

Hayagrīva: Sí, ya veo. De acuerdo. Ahora, la quinta escena...

Prabhupāda: Quinta escena, la madre del Señor Caitanya, Śacīdevī, está sentada debajo de un árbol, un árbol nīm. Se llama árbol nīm. Y el niño pequeño en su regazo, y los visitantes, llegan tantos visitantes, y ofrecen alguna presente. Alguien ofrece un collar de oro, otro ofrece brazaletes, algo de tela, algo de dinero, y Su padre, él... ¿cómo se llama?

Jagannātha Miśra. ¿Jagannātha Miśra está ahí? Sí. Jagannātha Miśra, Su padre. Él era, cualquier dinero y ropa y oro y plata que traían, él también los distribuía a los hombres pobres, algunos bailarines. En la India hay un sistema... ¿cómo lo llaman? ¿Los eunucos? Aquellos que no son ni hombres ni mujeres. ¿Cómo se les llama? ¿Cómo se llaman?

Hayagrīva: ¿Una combinación de ambos, hombre y mujer?

Prabhupāda: Sí.

Hayagrīva: Un hermafrodita. Un hermafrodita.

Prabhupāda: Eunucos, ¿qué es eso de eunucos?

Hayagrīva: Un eunuco es...

Prabhupāda: Femenino.

Hayagrīva: Impotente, un impotente ... alguien que ha sido castrado.

Prabhupāda: Oh, eso se llama eunuco. Por naturaleza, ni hombre, ni mujer.

Hayagrīva: Oh, esto también se llama asexual, es decir, sin sexo..

Prabhupāda: Sin sexo.

Hayagrīva: Hermafroditas significa que tienen rasgos físicos tanto de hombre como de mujer.

Prabhupāda: Oh. ¿Al mismo tiempo?

Hayagrīva: Al mismo tiempo.

Prabhupāda: No lo sé exactamente... pero esas personas tienen su propia sociedad, y su forma de vida es que siempre que hay una buena ocasión, un matrimonio o un parto, van allí y rezan a Dios para que: "Este niño tenga una larga vida". De esta manera hacen algunas oraciones y obtienen algunas...

Hayagrīva: Esta gente... ahora no entiendo... esto tiene lugar en... ¿la sexta escena...?

Prabhupāda: En la casa de Jagannātha Miśra.

Hayagrīva: La casa de Jagannātha Miśra. Y ¿quién es su esposa?

Prabhupāda: Esta escena debe ser mencionada como el patio de Jagannātha Miśra..

Hayagrīva: Y ¿quién es su esposa?

Prabhupāda: Śacīdevī.

Hayagrīva: Śacīdevī, sí.

Prabhupāda: Śacīdevī es la madre del Señor Caitanya. Ella está sentada con el niño, y todo el mundo la está visitando, visitando, presentando, o todos... todo el mundo está diciendo: "Oh, Él es un niño hermoso”.

Hayagrīva: Y estas personas asexuales...

Prabhupāda: Están bailando.

Hayagrīva: Están bailando.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Están bailando, “Hare Kṛṣṇa”. Sí, de esa manera. Se está realizando la danza Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Hayagrīva: Sí.

Prabhupāda: Y los visitantes llegan y se presentan. Es una escena muy bonita. Sí. La sexta escena es el Señor Caitanya, un niño travieso. Él iba al lado del Ganges, y es el sistema de los brāhmanas ortodoxos que meditan en el medio del Ganges. Ese es el sistema.

Ahora irá y nadará sobre el agua y les echará agua en la boca de esta manera. Un niño travieso. Y ellos estarán muy disgustados. "¡Niño travieso! ¡Ven aquí!". "Deja de meditar. ¿Qué es esta meditación? ¡Canta. Canta Hare Kṛṣṇa". Él diría así.

Entonces vendrán y se quejarán a su padre: "Tu hijo se ha vuelto demasiado travieso, y mira que... se burlaba así de nosotros". El padre dirá: "Oh, el niño va a ser muy travieso. Le castigaré. Dile que venga".

El padre, el enojado padre, estaba esperando. En cuanto llegara el niño, lo castigaría. Pero cuando el muchacho vuelve el padre ve que: "Él acaba de llegar de la escuela. No hay ninguna señal de que haya ido al Ganges y se haya bañado. ¿Cómo es que estos señores se quejaron?": Estará desconcertado. Tenemos que mostrarlo de esa manera.

Hayagrīva: ¿Qué edad tiene aquí? ¿Qué edad tiene Caitanya aquí? ¿Tal vez cinco, seis?

Prabhupāda: Tenía cinco o seis años. Eso es todo..

Hayagrīva: Y esto es... ¿cuál es la ubicación?

Prabhupāda: Este lugar es el frente de la casa de Jagannātha Miśra..

Hayagrīva: Sí. Seis años después, en otras palabras.

Prabhupāda: Sí.

Hayagrīva: De acuerdo. Y entonces ese es el...

Prabhupāda: Yo creo...

Hayagrīva: ¿Se encuentra con alguno de estos personajes en el río? ¿Se encuentra con alguno de los personajes allí arriba?

Prabhupāda: No. Público en general. Público en general. Pero todos son brāhmanas, brāhmanas rigurosos. Se están bañando. Sí.

Hayagrīva: ¿Ahora es el final del primer acto?

Prabhupāda: End of the first... I think you should first of all write this, then you take. Or you take all the notes at a time. Fin de la primera... Creo que en primer lugar debe escribir esto, entonces usted toma. O tomas todas las notas a la vez

¿Tiene deseos de seguir? No creo que vaya a escribir esto. Voy a usar esta cinta. Cuando repase una escena, la reproduciré. Es demasiado para escribir

Prabhupāda: Oh, está bien. Está bien..

Hayagrīva: Si le apetece seguir, adelante..

Prabhupāda: No, puedo hablar.

Hayagrīva: Oh, bien.

Prabhupāda: Puedo hablar.

Hayagrīva: Bueno vamos a hacer lo más posible, porque usted se va el domingo.

Prabhupāda: De acuerdo. De acuerdo. Hazlo..

Hayagrīva: Este es el segundo acto ahora.

Prabhupāda: Segundo acto. Luego la organización del saṅkīrtana del Señor Caitanya en la casa de Śrīnivāsa. Śrīnivāsācārya. El movimiento de saṅkīrtana era... estaban cantando todos juntos Hare Kṛṣṇa, y Caitanya Mahāprabhu preguntó a los devotos que: "Hola, Mis queridos amigos. Qué quieren comer?". Entonces algunos de ellos dijeron...

Eso fue fuera de temporada, y aún así algunos de ellos pidieron: "Estaremos muy complacidos si nos das algunos mangos". (risas) Así que el Señor Caitanya dijo: "Está bien. Sólo traigan una semilla de mango".

En Bengala hay... semilla de mango está disponible siempre, porque la gente en el pueblo, comen mango y lo tiran en el suelo, dicen que salen como enredadera, enredadera. Así que no es muy difícil. Trajo una enredadera como esa, y la sembró, y de inmediato se convirtió en un árbol, y hubo suficiente cantidad de frutas de mango. Todos los devotos fueron distribuidos. Y ese árbol de mango permaneció allí, y tomaban mango todos los días. Y en esa escena, sólo trata de…

La siguiente escena es la insatisfacción de los brāhmanas. Ahora algunos de los "brāhmanas...

Hayagrīva: ¿Qué edad tiene ahora Caitanya?

Prabhupāda: Estaba a punto...

Hayagrīva: ¿Dieciséis?

Quince, dieciséis, algo así. Sí. Quince, dieciséis. Sí, pregúntame, cualquiera cosa, sobre eso.

Hayagrīva: Esa es Su organización saṅkīrtana, esa primera escena.

Prabhupāda: Sí.

Hayagrīva: Y de este primero viene...

Prabhupāda: Sí, ese es el principio de...

Hayagriva: Una escena de Nivās...

Prabhupāda: En la casa de Śrīnivāsa.

Hayagrīva: ¿Son las personas en su mayoría jóvenes como él?

Prabhupāda: Sí, todos eran jóvenes.

Hayagrīva: ¿O son brāhmanas mayores?

Prabhupāda: Mayores, sólo estos...

Hayagrīva: Sólo los tres, sí.

Prabhupāda: Haridāsa, Śrīnivāsa y Advaita. Ellos tomaban parte. Por lo demás, todos, eran jóvenes amigos, sí. Muchachos jóvenes. No muchachas. Ese no es el sistema en la India. (risas) Sí.

Al momento de la segunda escena, principalmente Su movimiento estaba en marcha y se estaba haciendo popular. Caitanya Mahāprabhu predicaba que: "Simplemente por el movimiento saṅkīrtana todo se cumplirá. Ustedes no necesitan hacer nada". La clase sacerdotal, los brāhmanas, se sintieron muy descontentos porque: "Está invitando a los mahometanos y a todos los demás...".

Porque según la sociedad hindú, excepto los brāhmanas... especialmente en aquellos días, solo los brāhmanas eran considerados los más elevados de la sociedad, e incluso los kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, todos ellos calculaban para... en el grupo de los śūdras. De modo que Caitanya Mahāprabhu permitía que todos -los mahometanos, los śūdras, la clase baja, la clase alta, los brāhmanas... Él amalgamaba a todos.

Estos brāhmanas objetaron: "Está haciendo un movimiento desastroso. El prestigio de los brāhmanas desaparecerá". Se volvieron muy insatisfechos, y llegaron a la conclusión de que: "Vamos a ir al magistrado y presentar nuestra queja de que lo que Él está haciendo va en contra de la religión hindú, y está gritando siempre Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa en voz alta. El Señor está durmiendo. Será perturbado y habrá desastre, el Señor estará enojado". De esta manera presentaron la queja.

Haz cualquier cosa, pregunta.

Hayagrīva: ¿Hay alguno de los personajes enumerados aquí arriba entre los brāhmanas que se quejaron?

Prabhupāda: No. Se quejaron... personajes... brāhmanas ordinarios.

Hayagrīva: Sí. De acuerdo. Ahora, no puedo pensar en nada allí. Eso nos lleva a la siguiente escena, tercera escena.

Prabhupāda: Sí. Entonces la siguiente escena es que vinieron unos alguaciles, y durante el hari-saṅkīrtana, rompieron las mṛdaṅgas, que: "Usted ha desobedecido las órdenes del magistrado que... no puede hacerlo". Como los alguaciles, hacen algunos, quiero decir, lo que se llama, la violencia o el asalto, por lo que hicieron eso.

Y después de que los alguaciles se fueran, Caitanya Mahāprabhu fue informado. Él llegó. Vio que las mṛdaṅgas se habían roto y que todo estaba desparramado, Caitanya Mahāprabhu lo vio. Decidió: "Muy bien. Ahora organizaremos un movimiento de desobediencia civil. Mañana organizaremos a miles y miles de personas con mṛdaṅgas, y nos acercaremos a la casa del magistrado". Así que Él...

La siguiente escena... ¿cuál es la siguiente escena?

Hayagrīva: Ahora los alguaciles cortaron un saṅkīrtana llevado a cabo por los amigos de Caitanya. ¿Algún lugar en particular?

Prabhupāda: Sí. Se llama la casa Śrīvāsa.

Hayagrīva: En una casa. En casa de alguien.

Prabhupāda: Sí. Porque en la India las casas del pueblo, tienen algún compuesto. No esa única casa fija. Cada casa tiene un recinto.

Hayagrīva: Muy bien. Muy bien. Ahora está la cuarta escena, esta es la reunión con el magistrado.

Prabhupāda: Sí. Cuarta escena. Eso...

Hayagrīva: Marchan hacia el magistrado.

Prabhupāda: La casa del magistrado, y en el patio toda la gente, estaban muy entusiasmados.

Hayagrīva: Varios miles.

Prabhupāda: Several thousand. And they were loudly chanting and meeting Lord... so when the chanting was going on, the Chand Kazi appeared and there was discussion between... Chand Kazi was also very great scholar, and Lord Caitanya was also scholar. So Chand Kazi, just to pacify them, he addressed Caitanya, “My dear boy, You happen to be my nephew. You are my sister's son. Why You are so angry upon Your maternal uncle?” Prabhupāda: Varios miles. Y cantaban en voz alta y se reunían con el Señor... así que cuando se estaba cantando, apareció Chand Kazi y hubo una discusión entre... Chand Kazi era también un gran erudito, y el Señor Caitanya era también un erudito. Así que Chand Kazi, sólo para apaciguarlos, se dirigió a Caitanya, "Mi querido muchacho, resulta que eres mi sobrino. Eres el hijo de mi hermana. ¿Por qué estás tan enfadado con tu tío materno?"

Caitanya Mahāprabhu got the clue that he was prepared to make compromise. So He also mildly replied: “Yes, you are My uncle, I know. So because you are My uncle, therefore I have come to your house. How is that when the nephew comes that you do not receive Him? In an angry mood you go upstairs?” So in this way, the situation was pacified. Then they sat together and there was very learned discussion between the two. Because Hindus are always against cow killing. So he was Muhammadan. They were killing cow. Caitanya Mahāprabhu obtuvo la pista de que estaba dispuesto a transigir. Así que Él también respondió suavemente: "Sí, tú eres Mi tío, lo sé. Así que porque eres Mi tío, por eso he venido a tu casa. ¿Cómo es que cuando viene el sobrino no le recibes? ¿Te enfadas y te vas arriba?". De esta manera, la situación se apaciguó. Entonces se sentaron juntos y hubo una discusión muy erudita entre los dos. Porque los hindúes siempre están en contra de la matanza de vacas. Así que él era Mahometano. Estaban matando vacas.

Hayagrīva: Chand...

Prabhupāda: Chand Kazi.

Hayagrīva: Mahometano.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Muhammadan. Chand Kazi was a . . . Maulana Chand Kazi. His name is Maulana Chand Kazi. He was a great scholar in the Quran scripture. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu first of all asked the Chand Kazi, "My dear uncle, what is your religion, that you are eating your mother and father?" (laughs)

So if you will understand that He was attacking the cow killing process. So he said: "Well, You are just trying to criticize our cow killing, but in Your Vedic literature also I have seen that cow killing is allowed in sacrifice." Then Lord Caitanya said: "Yes. That is not killing. That is rejuvenating. That is not killing." The sacrifice of cow recommended in the Vedic śāstra means that the brāhmins proved how powerful was Vedic mantra that it could give a new life to the old cows and bulls.

So then Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that, "Such kind of learned brāhmins and Vedic yajña is not possible in this age. Therefore cow killing . . ." Not cow killing. "Sacrifice by offering cow, sacrifice by offering horse, and . . ." Aśvamedhaṁ gavālambhaṁ (CC Adi 17.164]]). And sannyāsaṁ pala paitṛkam. Sannyāsa means to become in the renounced order of life. And these five things. One thing is sacrifice by offering cow. Second, sacrifice by offering horse. Third, to accept renounced order of life. And fourth, offering ablutions . . . or what is called? Offering some . . . something to the forefathers? What is called?

Hayagrīva: Oblations.

Prabhupāda: Oblations. Yes. This, and to beget child by the husband's younger brother. Formerly, the society allowed that if a woman is young, she has no child, but husband died, so if the husband has younger brother, through the younger brother she could have a child. This system was current. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that these five things are forbidden in this age.

So Chand Kazi also replied that, "Cow killing is also not generally recommended in the Quran. Actually . . . I mean to say, beef-eating or flesh-eating is not in the higher stage. But those who are inclined to take flesh, for them it is recommended that instead of killing many small animals, one big animal should be killed." So actually in Mecca, Medina, they kill camel. That is also in the mosque.

So the substance of his speech was that flesh-eating ultimately is not recommended. "But those who have no other means, they eat flesh, and they recommend that one big animal should be killed. So India, the cow is big animal, therefore we kill. But that is not recommended for advanced spiritual students."

In this way . . . so they were friends, and he understood . . . Chand Kazi understood that it is very nice movement that, "You are preaching love of Godhead. So I did not understand. So my dear boy, henceforward there will be no hindrances in Your movement, and I promise that not only myself but all my descendants would never object Your movement, this saṅkīrtana movement."

Hayagrīva: All right. Now, I don't have any questions there. I probably wouldn't deal quite at such length about the meat. I don't see how that . . . the main thing was about the saṅkīrtana, the chanting.

Prabhupāda: Chanting, and it was mitigated, and he allowed. First of all, there was objection, then there was civil disobedience, then when they, I mean to say, compromised, the Chand Kazi allowed the movement. This is the whole idea.

Hayagrīva: The fifth scene is renunciation of household life.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: This is at age . . .? This is considerably later, then. This is about ten years later.

Prabhupāda: No. Renunciation . . . now this Chand Kazi, he was . . . this movement when He was about twenty years old. Do you follow?

Hayagrīva: The saṅkīrtana was when He was around twenty. The Kazi.

Prabhupāda: The saṅkīrtana was going on.

Hayagrīva: When He was sixteen, fifteen.

Prabhupāda: But practically He started this saṅkīrtana movement vigorously from the age of fifteen years. But when He was twenty years old, when the movement took very nice appearance, the brāhmins they complained. So this movement was about twenty years old, when . . . then renunciation . . .

Hayagrīva: He's twenty-four now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Renunciation. So one day it so happened that instead of chanting "Hare Kṛṣṇa," Lord Caitanya was chanting, "Gopī, gopī, gopī, gopī, gopī," instead of chanting "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa." So He had a small school. The brāhmins, generally they keep a small school, which is called catuṣpaṭhī. C-c-h-a-a-t-u-s-p-a-t-h-i.

Catuṣpaṭhī. Catuṣpaṭhī means that a school where up to the four Vedas are taught. Grammar and religion and everything is taught there. So there . . . in every village that was system, the brāhmins should keep up a school like that. Students were all almost, they were also of the same age. Some of them were fifteen years old, sixteen years old.

So the students came and saw Lord Caitanya was chanting "Gopī gopī," so they objected. They said: "Oh, why You are chanting gopī gopī? Why You do not chant 'Kṛṣṇa,' 'Hare Kṛṣṇa'?" So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was in His ecstasy, because He was . . . in the beginning, His appearance is in the form of gopī, to love Kṛṣṇa.

So He became very much angry, and because they were students, He wanted to chastise them. He took a stick. "You nonsense! What you are speaking? Go away!" So they fled away, but after that they organized, "Oh, how is that? Caitanya, He is . . . how He has become so big that they (He) wants to beat us?" In this way they practically they were talking ill of Him.

So He decided that, "If I remain a householder, these people will not honor Me." Because in those days a sannyāsī was honored in the society very much. If a sannyāsī comes to your village or to a householder's house, it was very . . . still it is going on, although not so widely. But still, eighty percent of the population in India, if they find out a sannyāsī they give all honor.

So He decided that, "Now I shall become a sannyāsī." So He happened to see Keśava Bhāratī, a sannyāsī on the Śaṅkara sampradāya, and He requested him that "You give Me sannyāsa." So He took sannyāsa from Keśava Bhāratī and He was assisted by Nityānanda, Murāri Gupta and some other people. So this is His renunciation decision and acceptance of sannyāsa.

Hayagrīva: How does He, How does He accept sannyāsī? Is it an official ceremony?

Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa, there is a ceremony. Just like we have got the initiation ceremony.

Hayagrīva: Did He have a spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: So He accepted spiritual . . . not spiritual master, but a sannyāsa-guru. That is also master, but he's not spiritual master. But he's also considered as sannyāsa-guru, spiritual master who offers him sannyāsa. Just like myself, I took initiation from my Guru Maharaja, but I took sannyāsa from a Godbrother who is a sannyāsī. So my original guru is that spiritual master who initiated me, but he's also a śikṣā guru. Like that. Teacher.

Then His renunciation of householder. He became sannyāsa. Now when He was, after taking sannyāsa, when He was going towards Vṛndāvana, He became always almost mad. So Nityānanda, He was with Him. When He saw that Lord Caitanya is in ecstasy, He misled Him just to . . .

His plan was that, "I shall take Lord Caitanya to the house of Advaita, and then I shall call His mother to see Him for the last time. If Caitanya goes away from this very point His mother will not be able to see Him."

So out of sympathy He said: "Well, Śrīpāda Caitanya, this is not . . . this side is not Vṛndāvana. You go . . ." He just misdirected Him. So . . . and He sent one man to Advaita to receive Him, that "He has taken sannyāsī. Just try to make arrangement to receive Him. Then we shall meet."

So when He came near the house of Advaita He saw that Advaita was waiting. So then He, I mean to say, came to His sense, "Oh, I am misled? I have come to Advaita's house? How is that, Nityānanda? You showed Me this way Vṛndāvana." Then He said: "Oh, wherever You stay, that is Vṛndāvana." Now Advaita says: "All right, please come to my house."

So he received Him and took Him there and sent news to His mother that, "Your son has now taken sannyāsa. Now if you want to see Him for the last time, please come and see."

So in this way at Advaita's house He remained for some time. Say about a fortnight. And during that time, in the beginning, His mother came, and His mother became so much sorry. That scene you have to describe very nicely—mother seeing that her son has taken sannyāsa: "No more He'll come to house."

So (s)he was crying. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu fell on his (her) feet and begged, "My dear mother, yes. This body belongs to you. This body should have been engaged for your service. Unfortunately, I've done a mistake. I have already taken sannyāsa. Please excuse Me." In this way. That scene described in the Dilip Kumar's house, that Caitanya is consulting mother, that is a false scene. The actual scene is that after accepting His sannyāsa, His mother came to see Him at Advaita's house. That is the . . .

Hayagrīva: Yes. Does she give Him her blessing finally?

Prabhupāda: No. Of course, mother's blessings are always there. But the scene was that mother was crying, and He was falling on the feet, and His mother was very sorry that He had very beautiful hair; now it is all cut off. In this way, the scene is very pathetic.

So in this way, after remaining at Advaita's house, His mother was asking Him through Advaita, "Let Him remain for some time." Then He consulted, "Mother, now just you," I mean to say, "think over that I have taken sannyāsa. And if I remain in this way, leaving My own family, and if I leave another family, do you think this is very nice for a sannyāsī? So give Me permission to go away." Then the mother agreed, and other friends like Advaita and Śrīnivāsa requested His mother that "You give Him permission." Then (s)he said: "Yes, I have to give Him permission, because He has already accept sannyāsa. If somebody blames Him, blasphemy, that is also not good. "So my last request is that He may make His headquarter at Jagannātha Purī so that . . . because people generally go to Jagannātha Purī, so I shall be able at least to know about Him, how He is faring there. That is my last request."

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu at once accepted, "My dear mother, I shall always stay in Jagannātha Purī, and sometimes I may come to Bengal also to take bath in the Ganges. So there will be meeting. Now let Me go." So in this way they departed, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu for the last time saw His friends and mother.

Hayagrīva: I don't understand Nityānanda's motive. He's a friend. Nityānanda, He's a young friend of . . . Caitanya's.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Nityānanda was not actually a family brother. But He was . . . He is the incarnation of Baladeva, the elder brother of Kṛṣṇa. So He took His birth in a different family, but He joined Caitanya's movement as other friends joined. So He is considered the elder brother of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He's actually.

Hayagrīva: He opposed Caitanya's . . . He opposed Caitanya's sannyāsa.

Prabhupāda: No, no. He did not oppose. He did not oppose. He simply, after Caitanya's acceptance of sannyāsa, He wanted simply that He should come to Advaita's place so that His mother may see Him for the last time. That was His plan.

Hayagrīva: I see.

(break) All right, this is third act, first scene.

Prabhupāda: So Caitanya Mahāprabhu, after taking leave from His mother, left Bengal towards Orissa, and on the entrance in the district of Balasore there is a nice temple called Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha temple. And He saw the temple. Here the scene is to be arranged that there is nice temple, and within the temple there is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity, Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha.

The pūjārīs are there, ārati is being taken place, and at that time Caitanya Mahāprabhu entered with His followers, chanting "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," and He saw the Deity and danced before Him. And when the ārati was finished, prayer was finished, then He sat down, talked with His associates, Nityānanda and Gadādhara and Murāri.

So Nityānanda Prabhu described about the Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha, the story of Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha. It was very nice story, that formerly one ācārya, Madhavendra Purī, came to this temple, Gopīnatha, and while that condensed milk, which is called kṣīra, was being offered to the Deity, Madhavendra Purī wanted to taste it so that he would also prepare such condensed milk and offer to his Gopāla. So after that he thought, "Oh, it is being offered to Kṛṣṇa and I wanted to taste it. So I am so greedy."

So he left the temple that, "I am not worth to visit this temple." So he went outside the temple and sat down underneath a tree and was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then at dead of night, Gopīnatha, the Deity, was awakening His priest by dream that, "You please get up. I have kept one pot of condensed milk behind My . . . " what is called . . . that pid vastra . . . that kings, sometimes they have got, very long tail-like. What is that called?

Hayagrīva: Robe or something?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. What is the name?

Hayagrīva: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: In Sanskrit it is called pid vastra, backside robe. So under the backside robe He kept one pot of condensed milk by stealing. So the pūjārī woke up and opened the door and actually saw that there was a pot of condensed milk. They were . . . the priests were very much astonished that, "Oh, He has stolen (laughs) kṣīra for His devotee."

So the order was that, "You take this pot and give to Madhavendra Purī. He is sitting underneath the tree." So they, with the pot of the condensed milk, they began to cry, "Oh, who is that Madhavendra Purī? Oh, you are so fortunate. The Deity has stolen condensed milk for you. Take it."

So he came forward, and he was so pleased that Lord has stolen. "Because I desired to taste, so Lord has stolen one pot." In this way. From that day He became famous, "the thief of condensed milk," kṣīra-corā. Kṣīra means condensed milk, and corā means thief. So the temple became famous that the temple of the thief of condensed milk.

Hayagrīva: Caitanya, the condensed milk thief.

Prabhupāda: No. Oh, you did not hear. Caitanya, after seeing the Deity, He was sitting and seeing, and in the meantime Nityānanda Prabhu narrated the story how His name became Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha. You did not follow me?

Hayagrīva: Nityānanda?

Prabhupāda: Nityānanda.

Hayagrīva: Nityānanda.

Prabhupāda: Nityānanda was going with Lord Caitanya.

Hayagrīva: Narrated this to Lord Caitanya? Nityānanda narrated this to Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that how the Deity was known as Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha. The story was narrated that formerly He stole one . . .

Hayagrīva: Condensed milk.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Pot of condensed milk for His devotee.

Hayagrīva: Now what is the direct relationship does this have to Lord Caitanya?

Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya also visited. Anyone in those days going to Jagannātha Purī from Bengal, they had to pass that way. And on the way the Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha temple is there. So everyone used to visit. So formerly Madhavendra Purī, he also visited, and for him the Deity stole the condensed milk. From that time He's known as Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha. That story was narrated to Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

So while sitting before the Deity, the story was narrated, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu relished it that God is so kind that sometimes He steals for His devotee. This is the significance of this. So here the scene should be arranged that very nice temple, the Deity within, and Lord Caitanya entered while chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and saw the worship, ārātrika. These things are to be shown in this scene. And a little story about Him, that's all.

Hayagrīva: About the temple.

Prabhupāda: About the temple. This will finish the first scene.

Hayagrīva: There should be more to the scene, I think, than that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Arrangement of the scene, yes. A very nice temple.

Hayagrīva: We might be able to . . . now what is this second scene? This is another temple.

Prabhupāda: This is another temple, yes. Here also, this temple, Sākṣi-gopāla.

Hayagrīva: I might be able to combine these, if they . . .

Prabhupāda: No. They are different temples. So Lord Caitanya is visiting different temples, that you have to show. And each temple, the significance of the temple has to be described. Especially the Deity. When the importance is to the Deity, the Deity should be shown nicely decorated.

Hayagrīva: Hmm. Well I don't know if I have enough information for that first scene. But I'll think of something. I don't know if I have enough information for the first scene. It can be very short.

Prabhupāda: First scene, why you have to . . . the ārātrika is going on and kīrtana is going on, you can continue for five minutes, ten minutes the kīrtana, and short description of the Deity. That's all. That will finish.

Hayagrīva: Now the other is the Sākṣi-gopāla.

Prabhupāda: Sākṣi-gopāla. Sākṣi means witness. Gopāla . . . that picture, we have brought that big picture, that is Gopāla mūrti—alone standing Kṛṣṇa and playing . . . you have seen that big picture?

Hayagrīva: The big picture, yes.

Prabhupāda: A Deity like that should be situated in that temple. And His name is Sākṣi-gopāla. These . . . similarly, Lord Caitanya entered with His party and saw the ārātrika in Gopāla temple. Then the story of the Gopāla, Sākṣi, why He was known as Sākṣi-gopāla.

Hayagrīva: Saw Darate? Saw what? Darate. He saw . . .

Prabhupāda: Ārati.

Hayagrīva: Entered and saw in the Sākṣi temple and saw . . .? What did you say?

Prabhupāda: Sākṣi-gopāla means witness Gopāla. Witness. So how He became witness, that story was also narrated by Nityānanda to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That story is that in that village, two brāhmins . . . that's a very long story.

Hayagrīva: What does this have to do with this temple? What does this story have to do with the temple? Lord Caitanya has entered this temple.

Prabhupāda: That's all. But how this temple was established, how Gopāla was established, that history is in that story. The Sākṣi-gopāla means witness. This Gopāla was situated in Vṛndāvana, but to give witness for His devotee He came to Orissa, that place. That is the significance of this Gopāla. Do you follow?

Hayagrīva: No. (laughs) No.

Prabhupāda: This Gopāla was situated at Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana means about more than one thousand miles away from where the temple is situated now. But He came one thousand miles to give witness for His devotee. Since then, Gopāla is situated there. So that story is narrated. So that story should be narrated, or what? How to do it? That is the significance of the temple. There was some family quarrel, and Gopāla came to give witness to decide judgment on that quarrel. So is it possible to describe?

Hayagrīva: I think from a dramatic point of view, in your third act, you can't have too many narrations. It becomes very tedious, if you have a narration—someone telling the history of various temples. Like in the first scene, now there's a story being told Lord Caitanya by Nityānanda. Now in the second scene He visits another temple. And is there going to be another narration about how the temple was founded? I don't think that's . . . I don't know. (laughs) Do you think that will be all right?

Prabhupāda: No. That will be all right in this way, that the narration should be shortly described in poetry, and that will be chanted with kīrtana. In that way, you see.

Hayagrīva: Yes. You see the first two acts . . . the first two acts there was a lot of action. There was a lot of action. Now we're in the third act, and we have two scenes . . . two scenes of description. Now they can be two short scenes of description. That'll be all right. That'll be all right, I think.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: So what is the story? A short little story?

Prabhupāda: The short story is that there was two brāhmins. Two brāhmins: one young brāhmin, one old brāhmin. They went to Vṛndāvana to see Gopāla, and the old brāhmin was so obliged to the young brāhmin, he promised to hand over his youngest daughter to the young brāhmin. But when he came back home, his eldest son objected. So he kept mum.

Then when the young brāhmin, I mean to say, reminded him that "You promised before Gopāla to hand over your daughter. Now you are silent. What is this?" so his eldest son said: "Well, if Gopāla comes to give witness that my father promised before Him, then my sister can be married with you." So he went back to Vṛndāvana and requested Gopāla to come and give witness. So He came, and the marriage ceremony was performed. This is the sum and substance of the story.

And since then Gopāla did not . . . Gopāla means statue. So in those days there was no transport service. And when Gopāla was present everyone became struck with wonder that, "Oh, such a devotee that Gopāla has come from Vṛndāvana to Orissa, more than 1,500 miles." So the king of that place constructed a very nice temple, and since then that temple is known as Witness Gopāla.

Sākṣi-gopāla means witness. So this story can be shortly described and chanted with music, and the scene of the temple will be seen, Caitanya Mahāprabhu dancing. Our real purpose will be the dancing and singing and little description.

Hayagrīva: Yes. Now, is that all of this?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then He visited Jagannātha temple. And the Jagannātha temple you have to arrange, it is very crowdy temple. So many people were visiting Jagannātha temple, at the same time Lord Caitanya also entered, and He entered alone.

Hayagrīva: How old is He at this point? How old is He?

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu?

Hayagrīva: His age at this time?

Prabhupāda: Twenty-four years. It is just after His sannyāsa. He took sannyāsa at the age of twenty-four. So He's visiting. After sannyāsa He's going to Jagannātha Purī. On the way He visited this Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha, Sākṣi-gopāla, and ultimately He came to Jagannātha temple. And in the Jagannātha temple was very crowded temple, because it is always at least 500, 1,000 devotees are always seeing. It is significance of Jagannātha temple.

So He entered, and as soon as He saw Jagannātha He became overwhelmed with ecstasy and fell down unconscious. So all the people gathered, "He's a young sannyāsī. He has fallen down." So there was Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, the learned scholar of Purī. He saw, "Oh, this young sannyāsī, He's not ordinary."

So he asked his men to carry Him to his place, and that will be the scene. Then after His departure His followers will come, and they will search in the temple that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is not there. Then one Gopīnātha Ācārya . . . I think the character is there? Gopīnātha Ācārya?

Hayagrīva: Now is this the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, Gopīnātha Ācārya. Yes.

Hayagrīva: Is this the learned brāhmin?

Prabhupāda: Gopīnātha Ācārya and Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. They were brother-in-law.

Hayagrīva: Saba . . . be . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhauma.

Hayagrīva: Oh, his name is here. Yes, you didn't mention . . .

Prabhupāda: And Gopīnātha Ācārya is also there.

Hayagrīva: Yes, all right. Sarvabhooma.

Prabhupāda: So just note down. First of all, Caitanya Mahāprabhu enters the temple. As soon as He sees Jagannātha He becomes fainted and fell down unconscious. So all the visitors, they became astonished that, "Here is a young sannyāsī, and how is that, He has fallen down?"

But Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya noted that He is a high-grade sannyāsī. So he asked his men that, "You carry this body, unconscious body, to my place." So his men took away Caitanya Mahāprabhu's body unconscious, and Sārvabhauma also, and exit.

Then after their departure His party entered the temple. Nityānanda, Gadādhara and Murāri, all these men entered. So Gopīnātha Ācārya was present there. He was known to Gadādhara, and Gadādhara inquired that, "Is there any sannyāsī who came here?" Then Gopīnātha Ācārya said: "Yes, we have seen one sannyāsī.

He fell down in ecstasy and Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya has taken Him to his home." So he invited, "All right, you come with me. I am taking you there." So all the parties were taken to Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's place.

Hayagrīva: The friends of Caitanya. What are their names again?

Prabhupāda: Their name is Nityānanda, Gadādhara . . .

Hayagrīva: What's that name?

Prabhupāda: Gadādhara.

Hayagrīva: Oh, I see, yes.

Prabhupāda: Nityānanda, Gadādhara . . .

Hayagrīva: And Murāri.

Prabhupāda: And Murāri and Mukunda.

Hayagrīva: And Mukunda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And Haridāsa also. Yes.

Hayagrīva: And Haridāsa. What about Advaita?

Prabhupāda: No, Advaita and Śrīnivāsa, they were left in . . .

Hayagrīva: All right. They're not there.

Prabhupāda: So the next scene comes to the Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's place.

Hayagrīva: Fourth scene.

Prabhupāda: Fourth scene. Yes. "Lord Caitanya meets Sārvabhauma." Now from Jagannātha temple the next scene is Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's house. Do you follow?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: In that house, Caitanya, Lord Caitanya was lying unconscious in ecstasy, the same unconsciousness which He got from the temple. So Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was trying to treat Him with some water so that He may come to consciousness. Now when His other friends, Nityānanda, Gadādhara and others, arrived there, they told, "Oh, Lord Caitanya, He becomes unconscious while chanting.

So He cannot be revived to His consciousness by any other means. We have to chant." So in the Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's house that chanting and dancing began with all the members, and gradually Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to consciousness.

Then there was introduction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu through Gopīnātha Ācārya and Gadādhara. And Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya told that, "You become my guest, you, all of you." And he gave them places. Then . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu was only twenty-four years old, and Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, he was old man, about sixty years old.

So by acquaintance it was disclosed that Sārvabhauma's father and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grandfather were class friends. So Jagannātha Miśra, in that sense—Jagannātha Miśra means Caitanya's father—was, I mean to say, a relative, brother-in-law of Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. So he took Him affectionately and told Him, "My dear boy, You have taken sannyāsa at a very early age. So You should be very careful to study Vedānta-sūtra from me. Otherwise it will be very much difficult for You, young man."

So He agreed, "Yes, you are just like My father. So you will kindly give Me instruction on Vedānta-sūtra." So there was discussion of the Vedānta-sūtra between Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That discussion is shortly mentioned in the introduction of my Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. You will see it.

Hayagrīva: The discussion between Sarvabhauma?

Prabhupāda: And Caitanya.

Hayagrīva: And Caitanya, regarding . . .

Prabhupāda: Regarding Vedānta-sūtra.

Hayagrīva: That's in the introduction to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Yes, I remember that. All right. There's no sense in going over that. All right. What is the outcome of this, now? Final outcome?

Prabhupāda: The outcome is that the Sārvabhauma was impersonalist and Caitanya Mahāprabhu was Vaiṣṇava. Then by argument, logic and everything—that is shortly described there—Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya became a disciple of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he became a greatest devotee. That is the outcome. And it was a great victory on the part of Caitanya Mahāprabhu because Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was known as the most stubborn scholar of logic of that time, and he became a devotee. Yes.

And by Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's becoming a devotee of Lord Caitanya, practically He became victorious in His missionary activities, because Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was a learned scholar in the assembly of the King of Orissa. So the King of Orissa also became a devotee, and many other scholars and big men.

Hayagrīva: Of Caitanya's. They all became devo . . . the King of Orissa?

Prabhupāda: Yes, he became a great devotee.

Hayagrīva: That might even be mentioned in this scene. I don't know if you can mention it here.

Prabhupāda: It is not mentioned, but . . .

Hayagrīva: Well, that's an outcome of this meeting, anyway.

Prabhupāda: When Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was meeting the King, the King inquired that, "I have heard that there is a big sannyāsī has come here. What is the details of this sannyāsī? I've heard that you have also become a disciple." So Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya explained, "Yes, He's not ordinary sannyāsī. He's Kṛṣṇa Himself, so far I've studied."

So Bhaṭṭācārya, he was authority, a great learned man. And the King, when he heard that He is Kṛṣṇa, he also became a devotee. So all expenditure, all everything was supplied by the King and his officers to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So many people . . . always four hundred, five hundred men were visiting Him. So whoever would come, and he would supply food and place. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He began His chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa in the Jagannātha temple.

The same scene is being performed here before the Jagannātha temple, Lord Caitanya is dancing. When we perform the class I remembered that scene. Yes. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu is dancing before Jagannātha. Every evening four parties. In each party four mṛdaṅga and eight karatāla.

So one party this side, one party this side, one party back side, one party front side, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu in the middle would dance, and the four parties will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa . . . that was going on every evening so long He stayed at Jagannātha Purī.

Hayagrīva: This . . . that only happened as long as He stayed there. Is that right?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: This no longer . . . they no longer do this.

Prabhupāda: No, not in that way, but kīrtana goes on in the temple still.

Hayagrīva: Not to such an extent.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes to such an extent. But He was different personality. In His presence, that was a different thing. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu's, I mean to say, Deity is within the temple. That Deity is worshiped, and kīrtana takes place, Bhāgavata . . . (indistinct)

Hayagrīva: In Jagannātha.

Prabhupāda: In Jagannātha Purī, yes.

Hayagrīva: All right. Now is that all of the fourth scene? Anything else in the fourth scene?

Prabhupāda: No, nothing.

Hayagrīva: All right. Then that's the end of the third act.

Prabhupāda: It is the end of third act. We have . . . (break)

Hayagrīva: This is the fourth act, first scene.

Prabhupāda: Yes, fourth act, first scene.

Hayagrīva: "Meets Rāmānanda Rāya."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Shall I speak?

Hayagrīva: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: So after converting Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu started for His South Indian tour. In South Indian tour, before meeting Rāmānanda Rāya, He visited a very nice temple, which is called Vijaya Nṛsiṁha. Shall I . . .? Shall you give that scene? That is very nice temple. Huh?

Hayagrīva: Yes. Go ahead.

Prabhupāda: Entonces, la primera escena será la visita al templo de Vijaya Nṛsiṁha Garh.

Hayagrīva: Vijaya...

Prabhupāda: Vijaya Nṛsiṁha Garh.

Hayagrīva: Después obtendré la ortografía de estos nombres con usted.

Prabhupāda: La estoy deletreando: V-i-j-a-y N-r-i-s-i-n-g-a G-a-r-h. Templo Vijaya Nṛsiṁha Garh. Está cerca del moderno astillero de Visakhapatnam. Hay un gran astillero hindú en Visakhapatnam. Antiguamente no se llamaba así. Cerca de allí, a unos cinco kilómetros de esa estación, hay un hermoso templo en una colina. Creo que se puede mostrar el paisaje del templo y la visita de Caitanya Mahāprabhu a ese lugar.

Y después de ese templo, Él llegó a la orilla del río Godāvarī. Así como el río Ganges es un río muy sagrado, también hay otros cuatro ríos considerados sagrados: Yamunā, Godāvarī, Kṛṣṇā y Narmadā. Gaṅgā, Yamunā, Godāvarī, Narmadā y Kṛṣṇā. Estos cinco ríos son considerados muy sagrados.

Él llegó a la orilla del Godāvarī, se bañó y se sentó en un lugar agradable debajo de un árbol, cantando: “Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa”. En ese momento, vio que se acercaba una gran procesión, y esa debería ser la escena. En aquella época, los reyes y gobernadores solían ir a bañarse en el Ganges con toda su parafernalia: banda, muchos brāhmaṇas y diversas actividades caritativas.

De esta forma, se acercaban para bañarse. Entonces, el Señor Caitanya vio que alguien se acercaba en esa gran procesión, y le informaron que era Rāmānanda Rāya, el gobernador de la provincia de Madrás. Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya le había pedido: “Vas al sur de la India. Debes conocer a Rāmānanda Rāya. Es un gran devoto”.

Así que cuando estaba sentado en la orilla del Kāverī y Rāmānanda Rāya venía en procesión, comprendió que era Rāmānanda Rāya. Pero como Él era sannyāsī, no lo abordó. Sin embargo, Rāmānanda Rāya, siendo un gran devoto, vio a un sannyāsī joven y hermoso sentado allí, cantando “Hare Kṛṣṇa”. Generalmente, los sannyāsīns no cantan “Hare Kṛṣṇa”. Ellos solo dicen “Oṁ Nārā... oṁ”, simplemente el sonido “oṁ”, no “Hare Kṛṣṇa”.

Hayagrīva: ¿Qué quiere decir con que no lo abordó porque era un sannyāsī?

Prabhupāda: El sannyāsīn tiene restricciones: no debe mendigar a personas con mentalidad materialista ni siquiera verlos. Esa es una restricción. Mujeres, y hombres de dinero.

Hayagrīva: Pero pensé que Rāmānanda Rāya era un devoto.

Prabhupāda: Era un devoto, sin duda, pero externamente era un gobernador. Externamente. Así que Caitanya Mahāprabhu no fue hacia él, pero Rāmānanda Rāya vio a un sannyāsī muy especial. Descendió de su palanquín, le ofreció reverencias y se sentó frente a Él. Entonces se conocieron, y el Señor Caitanya dijo: “Bhaṭṭācārya ya me ha hablado de ti. Eres un gran devoto. He venido a verte”.

Y él respondió: “¿Qué devoto? Soy un hombre de dinero, un político. Pero Bhaṭṭācārya ha sido muy amable al pedir a Su Santidad que me visite. Si ha venido, por favor, por favor, libéreme de esta māyā material”.

Entonces se fijó una cita con Rāmānanda Rāya, y ambos se encontraron de nuevo por la tarde. Hubo una discusión sobre el avance espiritual en la vida. Caitanya Mahāprabhu le hizo preguntas y Rāmānanda Rāya respondió. Por supuesto, es una historia larga, cómo Él preguntó y cómo respondió él.

Hayagrīva: Rāmānanda Rāya.

Prabhupāda: Sí.

Hayagrīva: Bueno, ¿eso es importante? ¿Esa es la escena del encuentro?

Prabhupāda: El encuentro... el encuentro, ¿quieres incluir la discusión?

Hayagrīva: Bueno, si debe representarse en la escena, es importante. ¿Quiere que represente la discusión?

Prabhupāda: Lo importante es la escena en la que Él conoce a Rāmānanda Rāya, quien llega en procesión. Esa fue una escena hermosa. Todo eso ya está completo. En cuanto a los diálogos, el resumen fue...

Hayagrīva: Solo deme un resumen breve.

Prabhupāda: Resumen breve... en esta escena Caitanya Mahāprabhu se convirtió en el estudiante. No exactamente un estudiante; Él hacía preguntas y Rāmānanda Rāya respondía. Así que la importancia de la escena es que Caitanya Mahāprabhu no sigue la formalidad de que solo los sannyāsīns deben ser maestros espirituales.

Cualquiera que conozca la ciencia de Kṛṣṇa puede ser maestro espiritual. Y para mostrar esto de forma práctica, aunque Él era sannyāsī y brāhmaṇa, y Rāmānanda Rāya era śūdra y gṛhastha (cabeza de familia), aun así Él se comportó como un estudiante e hizo preguntas a Rāmānanda Rāya.

Rāmānanda Rāya se sintió un poco, digamos, incómodo: “¿Cómo puedo tomar el rol de maestro frente a un sannyāsī?”. Entonces Caitanya Mahāprabhu respondió: “No, no. No dudes”. Él dijo que, ya sea que uno sea sannyāsī, gṛhastha, brāhmaṇa o śūdra, no importa.

Cualquiera que conozca la ciencia de Kṛṣṇa puede asumir el rol de maestro. Ese fue Su regalo, por así decirlo. Porque en la sociedad india, generalmente se considera que solo los brāhmaṇas y sannyāsīs pueden ser maestros espirituales. Pero Caitanya Mahāprabhu dijo: “No. Cualquiera puede ser maestro espiritual, siempre y cuando esté versado en la ciencia”.

Y el resumen de la conversación fue sobre cómo elevarse hasta alcanzar la perfección más elevada del amor por Dios. Y ese amor por Dios fue descrito como existente, de manera superexcelente, en Rādhārāṇī. Así que en el bhāva, en la emoción o estado de ánimo de Rādhārāṇī, y Rāmānanda Rāya, en el estado de Lalitā-sakhī, una de las asociadas de Rādhārāṇī, ambos se abrazaron y comenzaron a danzar en éxtasis. Ese será el final de la escena. Ambos comenzaron a danzar en éxtasis.

Hayagrīva: Rāmānanda Rāya...

Prabhupāda: Y Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Hayagrīva: Muy bien. Now the second scene. Is that the end of the first?

Prabhupāda: Second scene . . .

Hayagrīva: Fourth act.

Prabhupāda: . . . fourth act, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, after finishing His South Indian tour, He came back to Jagannātha Purī, His headquarter, and after some days He started for Vṛndāvana. While He was in Vṛndāvana He was embracing the trees as old friend, and the birds were sitting on His hand, as if receiving an old friend. Because He was Kṛṣṇa.

So after many years they have seen. And that scene, if you can describe how He's traveling in Vṛndāvana forest. Then He took bath in the several vānas and ghāṭas. Ghāṭas means bathing place of Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. And everywhere He felt the ecstasy of Rādhārāṇī, separation. In this way He returned from Vṛndāvana, and when He came down to Prayāg, modern Allahabad, at that time He met Rūpa Gosvāmī. Rūpa Gosvāmī.

Hayagrīva: Now you say the trees were old friends because He could remember that He was Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa used to play in these forests. He used to play in the forest. Yes. Now He met Rūpa Gosvāmī . . .

Prabhupāda: At Prayāg.

Hayagrīva: . . . at Prayāg. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Allahabad. And . . .

Hayagrīva: What is His age? I just want to keep checking on this, His age now. Is He twenty, in His twenties still?

Prabhupāda: No, no. He took sannyāsa at twenty-four. Say twenty-five, twenty-six years.

Hayagrīva: Couple of years later. All right. Because time is an important factor. You have to keep track of the time in the play.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He toured, after His sannyāsa, He toured all over India for six years only. That means up to thirtieth year He toured all over India. And from thirtieth year to forty-eighth year—eighteen years—He constantly remained at Jagannātha Purī. He used to chant in the temple and meet His visitors.

Especially during car festival ceremony of Jagannātha, from Bengal about four hundred, five hundred devotees would go and meet Him, and they would remain there for four months continually: July, August, September, October. Four months. And then they would come back. In this way, for eighteen years He passed in Jagannātha Purī.

So Rūpa Gosvāmī . . . he met Rūpa Gosvāmī and He taught him about the science of devotion for ten days. That devotional service He instructed that the living entities, they're roaming in the 8,400,000 species of life. Fortunately, if by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa and if he gets one good spiritual master, then he learns about devotional service. So He taught him about the science of devotional service. That is the importance of meeting Rūpa Gosvāmī.

So here the scenery must be mentioned. It is on the bank of Ganges. There is a nice ghāṭa, just like . . . you have been to Benares? No. You have been Haridwar? Haridwar?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have seen many ghāṭas, bathing places.

Hayagrīva: Oh, yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, there are ghāṭas in Benares, at Prayāg, and all, I mean to say, Vṛndāvana. That is the specific significance of Indian places of pilgrimage.

Hayagrīva: Yes. They bathe there every day, I noticed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So similarly, there is a ghāṭa which is called Daśāśvamedha Ghāṭa at Prayāg. He instructed about the science of devotional service to Rūpa Gosvāmī.

Hayagrīva: Now how old is Rūpa Goswami? Is he an old man?

Prabhupāda: Oh, he was old enough. He was not less than fifty years at that time.

Hayagrīva: I see. All right. Anything else in the second scene, fourth act?

Prabhupāda: That is it. And when He is . . . and then He came back to Benares. And . . .

Hayagrīva: Who?

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Hayagrīva: I thought He stayed in Jagannātha . . . he's not now . . . he left . . .

Prabhupāda: No, from Jagannātha Purī He went to Vṛndāvana. From Vṛndāvana, while coming down again, He first of all came to Prayāg. There He taught Rūpa Gosvāmī. Then when He still came down, He came to Benares.

Hayagrīva: Yes. All right.

Prabhupāda: At Benares He remained for two months. More than two months. And for two months continually He instructed Sanātana Gosvāmī about devotional service. That instruction you'll find in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya. I've written that Teachings of Lord Caitanya?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In that you'll find.

Hayagrīva: Now this third scene, meets Sanātana Gosvāmī, that's in Benares. And Sanātana is how old?

Prabhupāda: Sanātana was older than Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was the eldest. He was not less than about sixty-five or seventy years old. He was old man. Sufficiently old man.

Hayagrīva: Yes. And the instructions to Sanātana Gosvāmī are in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya. All right. Now . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, the fourth scene, the teachings with Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, that is also in there.

Hayagrīva: Who is this?

Prabhupāda: Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī was at Benares. He was a Māyāvādī sannyāsī, Śaṅkara-sampradāya. So he used to . . . this scene should be given that at Benares He was also walking all over the streets and roads, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," and thousands and thousands men were following Him.

This news arrived to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, who was the chief sannyāsī there and some of the devotees told, "Oh, a very nice sannyāsī has come to Benares. He's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī deprecated, "Oh! This is a nonsense! Why a sannyāsī should chant and dance? He should concentrate his mind in studying Vedānta. He is a fool." In this way Caitanya Mahāprabhu was criticized.

So one Maharastrian brāhmin, he was devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he said that, "This incident gave us much pain, sir. If You kindly meet this sannyāsī and talk with him about Vedānta-sūtra, that would be a nice thing."

Prabhupāda: Mientras tanto, vino un brāhmaṇa e invitó al Señor Caitanya diciendo: “He invitado a todos los sannyāsīns de Benarés, pero sé que Tú no te reúnes con estos sannyāsīs māyāvādīs. Aun así, he venido a invitarte. Si por favor aceptas mi invitación”. Entonces Caitanya Mahāprabhu vio en ello una oportunidad para encontrarse con Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī. Aceptó su invitación, y hubo un encuentro y una discusión sobre el Vedānta-sūtra con Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, y Él lo convirtió en un vaiṣṇava. Ese es otro incidente.

Hayagrīva: ¿Cuántos años tenía este hombre?

Prabhupāda: ¿Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī? También era un hombre mayor. No menos de sesenta años. Sí.

Hayagrīva: Y ¿cuál era su papel, otra vez, en la ciudad? ¿Qué era él... era un vedāntista?

Prabhupāda: Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī. Era un sannyāsī māyāvādī. Aceptó el principio de Caitanya Mahāprabhu y Le ofreció su respeto. Le tocó los pies. Y también se unió. Pero no hay mención de que se haya vuelto oficialmente un vaiṣṇava, aunque aceptó la filosofía de Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Pero Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, ese sí se volvió oficialmente un vaiṣṇava. Luego, el Señor Haridāsa se encuentra...

Hayagrīva: ¿Quinta escena?

Prabhupāda: Quinta escena.

Hayagrīva: ¿Esto es Haridāsa Ṭhākura?

Prabhupāda: Haridāsa Ṭhākura.

Hayagrīva: ¿En la muerte de quién? ¿En la de Haridāsa?

Prabhupāda: Sí. Haridāsa era un hombre muy anciano. Era musulmán.

Hayagrīva: Él fue la persona que fue arrojada al río.

Prabhupāda: Sí.

Hayagrīva: Así que finalmente llegó su fin aquí, en la quinta escena.

Prabhupāda: No estamos tratando esos... Por supuesto, Haridāsa Ṭhākura tiene una vida aparte, pero eso no lo vamos a mostrar.

Hayagrīva: Sí, de acuerdo. Este incidente en particular.

Prabhupāda: Este incidente particular es significativo, porque Caitanya Mahāprabhu era un brāhmaṇa y un sannyāsī. Según la costumbre social, ni siquiera debía tocar a un musulmán. Pero este Haridāsa Ṭhākura era musulmán, y a su muerte, Él mismo tomó el cuerpo y danzó, lo colocó en el cementerio y distribuyó prasādam. Y Haridāsa Ṭhākura llevaba dos o tres días sintiéndose mal. Como era musulmán, no entraba en el templo de Jagannātha, porque los hindúes eran muy estrictos. Él era devoto, no le molestaba. ¿Por qué iba a causar alguna controversia? Así que Caitanya Mahāprabhu apreció su comportamiento, que no quería causar ningún problema... aunque se había vuelto devoto. No iba al templo a la fuerza. Pero Caitanya Mahāprabhu venía diariamente a verlo. Al irse a bañar al mar, primero iba a ver a Haridāsa. “¿Haridāsa? ¿Qué estás haciendo?”. Haridāsa le ofrecía su respeto y Él se sentaba a conversar un rato. Luego, Caitanya Mahāprabhu iba a bañarse. De esta manera, un día, cuando vino, vio que Haridāsa no se sentía bien. “¿Haridāsa? ¿Cómo está tu salud?”. “Sí, Señor, no está muy... después de todo, es el cuerpo”.

Entonces, al tercer día, vio que: “Haridāsa va a dejar su cuerpo hoy”. Así que Caitanya Mahāprabhu le preguntó: “Haridāsa, ¿qué deseas?” Ambos lo entendían. Haridāsa dijo: “Esta es mi etapa final. Si por favor puedes estar de pie frente a mí”. Así que Caitanya Mahāprabhu se paró frente a él y él dejó su cuerpo. (pausa)

Hayagrīva: Mencionó que...

Prabhupāda: Que después de su partida, el cuerpo fue llevado por Caitanya Mahāprabhu mismo, y otros devotos lo llevaron al mar y cavaron su tumba allí. Esa tumba aún existe en Jagannātha Purī: el samādhi de Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Entonces Caitanya Mahāprabhu comenzó a danzar. Esa fue la ceremonia. Porque en una ceremonia vaiṣṇava, todo es kīrtana y danza. Así que esa fue Su última ceremonia para Haridāsa Ṭhākura.

Hayagrīva: ¿Mencionó algo sobre Caitanya danzando con Haridāsa?

Prabhupāda: Con el cuerpo de Haridāsa. Caitanya... con el cuerpo muerto. El cuerpo muerto de Haridāsa.

Hayagrīva: ¿Ah, con su cuerpo muerto?

Prabhupāda: Sí. Su cuerpo muerto.

Hayagrīva: Después de su muerte.

Prabhupāda: Después de su muerte.

Hayagrīva: Caitanya...

Prabhupāda: Mientras, quiero decir, Haridāsa estaba vivo, Él danzaba. Pero después de la muerte de Haridāsa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu tomó el cuerpo y comenzó a danzar con kīrtana. Eso significa que Su ceremonia fúnebre fue dirigida por Caitanya Mahāprabhu mismo. Llevó el cuerpo al mar, y en el cementerio Él...

Hayagrīva: ¿Él dirigió la...?

Prabhupāda: Sí. La ceremonia fúnebre, sí.

Hayagrīva: ¿Con un kīrtana?

Prabhupāda: Con kīrtana. Siempre hay kīrtana. Y después del entierro hubo distribución de prasādam y kīrtana. Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Así que aquí tienes que mostrar algunas conversaciones con Haridāsa, con mucho sentimiento.

Hayagrīva: Muy bien. ¿Hay alguna otra... hay alguna otra información sobre Haridāsa?

Prabhupāda: La historia de vida de Haridāsa es que nació en una familia musulmana. De alguna manera u otra, se volvió devoto y cantaba 300,000 veces... 300,000 veces: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare / Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, y Caitanya Mahāprabhu lo nombró ācārya, la autoridad del canto. Por eso lo glorificamos: “Nāmācārya Haridāsa Ṭhākura ki jaya“. Porque fue nombrado el ācārya, la autoridad del canto de Hare Kṛṣṇa. Luego, cuando el Señor Caitanya tomó sannyāsa, Haridāsa Ṭhākura deseó: “Mi querido Señor, Tú vas a... vas a dejar Nabadwip, entonces, ¿cuál es el sentido de mi vida? O me llevas o déjame morir”. Entonces Caitanya Mahāprabhu dijo: “No. ¿Por qué habrías de morir? Ven conmigo”. Así que Él lo llevó a Jagannātha Purī. En Jagannātha Purī, como se consideraba nacido en familia musulmana, no entraba. Entonces Caitanya Mahāprabhu le dio un lugar en la casa de Kāśīnātha Miśra, y allí él cantaba y Caitanya Mahāprabhu le enviaba prasādam. De esa forma pasaba sus días. Y Caitanya Mahāprabhu solía ir a verlo diariamente, y un día murió así.

Hayagrīva: All right. That's the end of the fourth act. Now the fifth act . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, the fifth act . . .

Hayagrīva: First scene.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the, in the fifth act, "Ecstasy." At night Caitanya Mahāprabhu would become mad in separation of Kṛṣṇa. He would dash His head on the floor. Sometimes He would write with His nails, and sometimes He would go away. Although the house was locked, He would go away, and sometimes He would be found amongst the cowshed of Jagannātha Purī. Sometimes He would be seen in the seashore.

One day it was so found that He fell in the ocean and some fisherman caught Him on the net. And as soon as He was in the net and the fisherman touched Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he is also began to dance, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare." And his brothers, his fellow men, thought, "Oh, he's caught ghost, haunted."

So in the meantime, His secretary, Dāmodara Svarūpa, came to the seashore and he saw that the fisherman was dancing. Then he could understand that he must have some connection with Caitanya Mahāprabhu, (laughs) otherwise why this fisherman is dancing and "Hare Kṛṣṇa"? Then asked him, "What has happened to you?" He said: "Sir, I do not know. I am a fish-catcher. Now this morning I caught one big fish, and as soon as I caught I am haunted. So I am dancing."

So Svarūpa Dāmodara, "Where is that fish, big fish? Let me see." So he saw in the net Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He saw Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then he told him, "Yes. I'll chant some mantra so the ghost will go away." So he made him some show. "All right. Now your ghost is over."

So he took away Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and when Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw, He told Svarūpa Dāmodara, "Why you have brought Me in the seaside? Oh, I was seeing rāsa dance of Kṛṣṇa. I was enjoying." In this way He was always in ecstasy.

And in the last stage, the same ecstasy, He entered Jagannātha temple and He never came back. That is the end of . . . (indistinct) . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . so you have to add scenes and sounds. That's all.

Hayagrīva: Uh, now . . . in ecstasy here on the seashore, I don't understand. He met this fisherman. On the seashore?

Prabhupāda: No! He, at night, out of His own accord, He came to the seashore and fell on the sea.

Hayagrīva: Oh, He threw Himself in the ocean.

Prabhupāda: In the ocean. Bay of Bengal. And the fishermen, they came to catch fish. So instead of fish, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's body was in the net.

Hayagrīva: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: He already dropped Himself on the sea.

Hayagrīva: He was unconscious.

Prabhupāda: Unconscious. He was rolling in the sea.

Hayagrīva: So they brought Him out and some of His friends went to find Him.

Prabhupāda: Not all. His secretary. Because he knew that Caitanya must have gone somewhere. So while inquiring where is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when he came to the seashore he saw that the fisherman was dancing. Then he could understand, "He is dancing with Hare Kṛṣṇa, that means he must have some connection with Caitanya Mahāprabhu."

Hayagrīva: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Then when he inquired, he told him that "I have caught this morning a big fish, and since then I am dancing. I do not know. I got mad. Perhaps I have been caught by some ghost. So I do not know." So Svarūpa Dāmodara, just to pacify him, "Yes. I am just driving away ghoul, I mean to say, ghost. Don't worry. Where is that fish? Let me see it." And when he saw that fish was caught in the net, and it was Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Hayagrīva: Now the second scene here, this is when Caitanya on the seashore, this is when He would walk around saying: "Where is Kṛṣṇa?" Is that right? "Where is Kṛṣṇa" He would . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was seen on the seashore within the net after being caught by the fisherman. And when He fell on the sea, that is not seen. You can make a scene that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is coming, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare . . ." and fall down in the sea. Then He was caught by the net of the fisherman.

Hayagrīva: And what is the second scene?

Prabhupāda: This is the second scene I have described. First scene and second scene.

Hayagrīva: The first scene also.

Prabhupāda: They are all. First, second scene, they are all ecstasies. Yes. And the third scene, similarly . . .

Hayagrīva: Wait. He must be around . . . in His forties now. This is in His forties.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These ecstasies were going on daily from His age thirtieth to forty-eighth year.

Hayagrīva: Thirty-eight to forty-eight, every day.

Prabhupāda: Not thirty-eight. Thirtieth.

Hayagrīva: Thirtieth.

Prabhupāda: Thirty to forty-eight. Eighteen years. Sometimes He was chanting, sometimes He was falling, sometimes He was going there. That was His business all eighteen years.

Hayagrīva: Every day?

Prabhupāda: Every day. Especially at night. (Hayagrīva laughs) Simply . . . the whole program was the whole day He would see the visitors. And so many visitors were coming. In the evening He'll chant and dance in the temple. And at night, instead of sleeping He was doing all these . . . sometimes falling in the sea, sometimes here, sometimes there. That was His business.

Hayagrīva: I see. Now this third scene.

Prabhupāda: Third scene. In the same way, one day when He was forty-eight years old, He entered the Jagannātha temple . . .

Hayagrīva: And disappeared.

Prabhupāda: Disappeared. His friends outside waited and waited, and He never come back. That's all.

Hayagrīva: They never knew what happened to Him. They never found . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, they knew that He was Kṛṣṇa; He has merged into the existence of Jagannātha.

Hayagrīva: He left. Took off. All right. Now no more. That's the end.

Prabhupāda: Ahora escríbelo y yo haré alguna adición o alteración cuando lo escribas. Esta es la sinopsis y el marco. Ahora puedes proceder. (fin)

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